Paul, a reader in New Hampshire in the US recently sent me an email with a good question. He wants to buy heirloom/OP bean seeds in 1lb packages, and wants to know where in the US he can do this ethically?
He said he’s read what I’ve written earlier about the Seed Savers Exchange, and their various statements on their website, and doesn’t want to buy from them.
He said he bought some seeds from a company I won’t mention here (but Paul can mention it in the comments if he wants), and they came packaged in fake plastic bags made of GMO corn manufactured by ‘Cargill’, and he doesn’t want to buy from them again.
Anyone have any suggestions?
I’ve looked around, and emailed Paul some suggestions, but it’s surprisingly difficult to find a company selling bean seeds in this way.
If anyone out there is themselves selling bean seeds in bulk, let me know and I’ll forward your email address to Paul.
Try J.L. Hudson, Seedsman (“A Public Access Seed Bank) out of La Honda, California. http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net
A place little closer to Paul ;
http://www.woodprairie.com/category/organic-vegetable-garden-seeds/a
1 lb Organic Provider Bean Seeds $14.95
1 lb Organic Tavera Bean Seeds $14.90
And Clemson Uni.
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/seed/index.htm
They have 1/2 lb bean seeds, some are out of stock. Though they have a wonderful selection of heirlooms and some O.P.’s. There are some hybrid veggies in the mix too. Keep your eyes open.
Hope this helps =:-)
J.L. Hudson looks good to me! They do only have one bean in stock, but they might have more later.
Yes, Woodprarie seems okay too. They only have one bean in stock. They are pretty pricey, and I’m not really wild about certified organic seeds. I’ve written about this before:
http://www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2008/01/certified-organic-can-be-bad-for-small-and-local/
For example, when I go to the supermarket and buy certified organic vegetables, they tend to be packaged in the same fake plastic made from GMO corn and manufactured by Cargill that Paul mentioned. I would choose locally produced, or a verbal statement from a small farmer that what he’s selling is organic equivalent, over certified organic any day.
I’m afraid Todd I don’t agree with you about Clemson U. Every time I have ever bought any seeds from any place that sells even one commercial F1 hybrid, I’ve been disappointed. The problem is nearly all commercial F1s are produced by companies like Monsanto, who force companies who sell their seeds to sign unreasonable contracts, and impose marketing restrictions on their other seeds. These companies also often intentionally mislabel seeds, although this is a little less common these days because they can be easily named and shamed on the Internet.
Simply put, companies who sell any F1s are generally in bed with the wrong people and you often get ripped off. This holds for universities too…
Having said this about companies who sell F1s, I don’t mean to suggest all F1s are bad. If you do want to grow F1s however, it’s better to buy them from a company who specializes in them, and buy your OP/heirloom seeds from a company that specializes in those.
I’ve also written about this before:
http://www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2009/12/how-to-buy-heirloomop-seeds/
My suggestions for Paul were the following:
http://www.heirloomacresseeds.com/
http://rareseeds.com/ (Baker Creek)
Heirloom Acres selection is not very exciting, but perhaps that’s not always necessary, especially when you’re buying in bulk. I don’t think they grow all their own seeds, and maybe none at all, so before buying any seeds it would be worth asking about them first. They are a little on the religious side, but also a friendly and family run seed company. Ordering from them generally means having contact with Thom, and he’s a nice and helpful person. I’ve placed a couple of orders with them over the years.
Baker Creek is kind of on the large side, and I normally prefer something smaller. I see they also only have one bulk bean variety in stock. They are pretty much the only large seed company in the US who have maintained their ethics however. As far as I’m aware, their seeds are grown in the US and they pay their growers fairly. They also have a fantastic selection, and sell some things in bulk.
Anyone have more comments or suggestions?
http://www.seedsofchange.com/market_growers/default.aspx
Hi Cynthia!
Everything I said above about Clemson U holds for Seeds of Change (SoC).
SoC is really the story of a once great seed company gone bad. It was started by some of the most important figures in plant breeding and seed saving, like Alan Kapuler, with some outstanding ideals.
It’s since been bought by Mars, the candy bar company, that’s famous for it’s lack of ethics and promotion of processed foods.
It’s only the story of one person of course, but a reader of this blog sent me an email a few years ago with the story of buying a bean variety from SoC, advertised as OP, expecting to save seeds from it. After several years of unhelpful customer service contact, she finally discovered herself that instead of the variety she ordered they sent her a mislabelled F1. In all this time, she became fond of the bean and wanted to regrow it, but the reality was she wasted years of gardening effort, only to discover if she ever wanted to grow it again, she would have to buy more F1 seeds.
Of course SoC offered to replace the seeds or refund her purchase, but who was going to give her back all those years spent in the garden?
I’m personally not a fan of modern day SoC!
Wow! Thanks for the email, blog, and comments.
The reason I wanted to grow all of my own food is because of the incredible difficulty and expense of buying anything that begins to meet my standards, so I’m not exactly surprised that it’s this difficult. At this point I’m leaning towards buying a bulk bag from the company I previously purchased from, they seem too “green” to me, but they only use PLA for certain bag sizes, possibly only the one pound bag. I can’t blame them for that mistake too much, it’s not only deceptively marketed it’s done so with an unusual level of skill.
Or I might order from J.L. Hudson, very glad to have found them! Thank you Deborah! I’m now researching their cowpeas and other options.
Patrick, I agree about sellers of hybrids, I don’t mind if people grow, buy, and sell them but I don’t want to be involved. I do think it tends to reflect a corporate mindset, once you adopt the “Gillette strategy” where the product is disposable then quality and ethical standards seem to inevitably drop. I might decide to buy from the company with the PLA bags, they do sell F1 hybrids, and they are certified organic (making the GMO-petro bags a real affront to their alleged principles), but they are better than most by far, and this should be the last year I’ll need to buy bulk bean seeds. I have a few heirloom packets and will buy a few more and grow those for next years seeds.
I also won’t buy from Clemson U. because I dislike universities in general and agricultural programs at universities in specific. While they have done some great work over the years that is the exception to the rule and they’ve played a crucial role in creating the world as it is now and our problems. On the first page it says one of the goals is to cooperate with the USDA, and while their product may be produced to my standards, their partners don’t qualify and I would suspect much of their funding is also questionable.
I have ordered from Baker Creek, actually about to order from them again, but they don’t seem to sell any bulk dry bean varieties and I do prefer something smaller. I plan to use them for things I can’t find elsewhere, but I am finding more and more small suppliers.
Thanks again everyone!
Alas, Seeds of Change is a sell out as Patrick mentioned.
I do find it fascinating how the corporations have taken over the organic movement. While this has nearly destroyed sustainable agriculture, it has brought vast improvements to the unsustainable agriculture.
One of the other seed companies I was planning to do business with apparently is run by a group of Marxists or Marxist sympathizers, and they are mighty rude to those who don’t agree with their “eat the rich” mentality (I’m a poor man still, but I learned the lessons taught by the Marxists in Zimbabwe, China, the Soviet Union, etc and while I intensely dislike the wealthy and powerful elites who’ve taken over the country, and I outright hate the way they produce food, I’d rather not have everyone I know and care about starve).
It won’t be my first company, and probably not my second either, but I see clearly a market opening for a “beyond organic” heirloom seed company with the highest standards, and will look into starting one when I have the means.
I knew you’d respond that you did not like them..I felt an unease towards them a few years back & we have discussed it before in email. The catalog changed too, gone the bios of growers. I’ve not bought from them since, but from Baker Seeds, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Native Seed Search & Sand Hill Preservation Center. But I was thinking if a person looked into it they may find that S.O.C does also have good stuff by reputable seed growers & heck, my post would start some comments as I am curious as to opinion on S.O.C bad & good. Thanks for reading.
Cynthia,
Everything I said about SoC and Clemson U applies to Southern Exposure Seed Exchange(SESE) too. I used to buy things from time to time from SESE, but really their prices are way too high for many things, and they are often completely unreasonable about shipping costs for things outside the US.
I one time needed a packet of celeriac seeds (about 3g worth of seeds), and ordered it to be sent here to the Netherlands. All they did was put it in an envelope with an airmail stamp (about 30 cents more than an ordinary letter) and customs declaration (free and takes about a minute to fill out) on it. The seeds were about $2, then it was below the minimum order amount, so they added more for that. Then there was a per order charge. Then there was the extra postage and handling charged for an overseas order, and they added more for that. In the end I paid more than $30 for the packet of seeds, they didn’t confirm this with me in advance, and it’s totally unreasonable for what they sent.
If you really need something very badly, SESE might be an option, but they are not a very good seed company in my opinion.
Also SESE and Sand Hill Preservation Center have close ties to the Seed Savers Exchange.
Native Seed Search has the same board/Executive Director construction as the Seed Savers Exchange, and for this reason is very subject to the same commercial influences. I would not automatically trust them as a seed company to be on the right side of things.
I think it’s always better to buy from small and local!
Hey Patrick, Southern Exposure Seed Exposure IS local for me w/lots of contact in my community. I like the seeds & the people. Are you sure the postage nightmare was w/ them? I have always been pleased w/ their service. They say they only ship to Mexico & Canada, guess that could be a new policy. Though we really never know for sure about seeds we buy, SESE seems to be working in a good way, so far so good. Haven’t read a lot yet but I guess they along w/ others are suing Monsanto.
http://www.southernexposure.com/our-nongmo-policy-ezp-15.html?zenid=ui62r54ohg0hrsvcmf8fs1eei2
Here’s another one.
http://www.ecoseeds.com/
Mostly pepper variety’s with about 4 bean types.
I believe to buy in bulk you have to give them a call : Business# 650-325-7333
I’ve dealt with ecoseeds/redwood city before and have always had more seeds in a pack than what is stated in the catalog or website.
Pat, like you stated it is getting very hard to find a place selling bulk beans Non- Gm/Ge, non -hybrids that are not high in price or have the “certified” label.
Cynthia,
SESE does sell hybrid seeds. The postage thing with them did happen.
It’s always a balance. There are no local seed companies to me that don’t sell hybrids, and sometimes I set aside my principles to buy something locally. If SESE was local to me, I might buy from them too. Also SESE does sometimes have unusual things that are hard to find elsewhere, like perennial onions. Especially since they say they don’t ship to Europe, it’s unlikely I’ll buy from them again.
Todd,
Redwood City looks pretty good too, if they sell in bulk.
I sometimes pay ‘extra’ for what I want, and I don’t always think certified organic is bad.
In the Netherlands they publish lists of fruits and vegetables that normally have unusually high levels of pesticide residues, and for these I often look for certified organic if I have to buy them from a supermarket. It’s known for example that peppers, cucumbers, tomatoes and potatoes often have illegal levels of pesticide residues here.
There is also a discount German supermarket chain here that tests it’s fruits and vegetables for pesticide residues, and pushes back on their suppliers to provide the cleanest produce at the best price. The downside is their produce is often shipped from around the world, but I often buy from them if I have to buy produce from a supermarket.
I think the real key is to be a wise consumer, and to think about what you buy.
I hope people who read this blog don’t think of me as someone who’s trying to push my ideals on others, and is holier than thou. It’s really only my intention to get information out and get people to think.
Nobody’s opinions are wrong, and everything I write here is only my opinion.
“Nobodies opinions are wrong, and everything I write here are only my opinions.”
In many other areas I would disagree, and say some opinions are right and some are wrong, but when judging smaller companies you are judging people, and since there are no perfect people there are no perfect companies, and so it is a subjective opinion as to which ones are “good” and which ones are not. Now, if we start talking about something like Monsanto…then we are talking about a corporation which has an identity and character that supersedes that of the individuals who are it’s building blocks, and the thing as a whole is objectively bad.
“Redwood City looks pretty good too, if they sell in bulk.”
I concur. Thank you Todd! I may or may not get beans from them this year, but I know where I’ll be doing my pepper seed shopping next year!
I came upon J.L. Hudson, Seedsman (established 1911) about 10 years ago, via a friend from California; and I order the majority of my vegetable, herb, edible flower seeds from them. I also order from Baker Creek and a small company called Ohio Heirloom Seeds.
If you aren’t familiar with J.L. Hudson, a very old-school operation, you owe it to yourself to request the annual “Ethnobotanical Catalog of Seeds” (rather than only looking online). It will provide several hours of really great reading in very small print, on black and white recyclable paper, “typeset entirely without the use of computers”. The 2011 catalogue is 99 pages (only 15 of which are devoted to vegetables).
The company motto is “Preservation through dissemination.”
I hope you all will check it out. And I wish you best of luck, Paul, in finding what you are looking for.
Deborah,
I have JL Hudson’s catalog partially scanned and been in the process of scanning the rest of it. I hope to have it avail. before spring(running behind) for those who have a hard time reading small print. The beauty of JL catalog is the uncopyright clause they have. 😉
Those who are interested should get the catalog and sign up for their emails they send out periodically. The GA-3 kit is fun and I’m finding it very useful and a life saver of some butterbean/lima bean seeds my grandmother gave me that she had stashed in her closet for over 20 years.
@ Pat, Paul & everyone else:
I don’t used store bought fertilizers. mostly I make them my own. Compost, worm castings,manure,green manures,wood ash or potash and bone meal. I won’t go into detail about the bone meal, though I will say it involves fresh road kill which I take a large wood rasp file and file bones into dust and then collect.
@ Paul, Depending on the pepper seed you get from Ecoseeds, you probably get more than what is stated. Bean seeds come in the 2&1/2″ X 4″ manilla coin envelopes bulging. One thing I like about ecoseeds is you can pay with cash well concealed in your mail in order.
@Pat, one thing I wish to come out on the gardening scene is a DIY GMO/GEO & pesticide residue test kit. Similar to the DIY soil ph test kits. That would save me from running to the local agriculture extension branch to get seeds tested, or save me oodles of $$ in mailing seeds off to a place I never seen or heard of to get seeds tested. Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but it doesn’t hurt to dream once in awhile.
Todd,
Never underestimate what you can do with your own head! A little common sense can go a long way.
There’s a similar list of pesticide contaminated produce for the US published here:
http://www.foodnews.org/fulllist.php
and I’ve posted about this before here:
http://www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2009/04/fruit-and-vegetable-guide/
I made a post about GMO seeds several years ago. It’s a little out of date, but the basic ideas remain:
http://www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2007/01/how-to-avoid-growing-gm-plants-in-your-garden/
This may be no substitute for a laboratory test, but it can come pretty close!
Deborah,
Thanks for the nice comment!
What about Purcell Mountain Farms? This site was mentioned at least a year or more ago on HGG and one of the “benefits” mentioned is that all of their beans are supposed to be sproutable. I have not made a purchase from them yet, though I always have hopes.
Here’s the address:
http://www.purcellmountainfarms.com/index.htm
Hi Jo!
Nice to hear from you again.
That’s a great suggestion! It took me a few moments to realize they sell beans for eating and not growing, but that shouldn’t really matter too much.
They say all their beans will sprout, but not that they have been grown for isolation. It’s reasonable to expect a few will have crossed and you’ll find some not true to type. Since beans are mostly inbreeding, this shouldn’t be a big problem, but is a small risk.
How about http://www.fedcoseeds.com/ I know they are not *exclusively” heirloom/OP, but they’ve got a pretty decent pledge related to GM:
“Agriculture and seeds provide the basis on which our lives depend. We must protect this foundation as a safe and genetically stable source for future generations. For the benefit of all farmers, gardeners and consumers who want an alternative, we pledge that we do not knowingly buy or sell genetically engineered seeds or plants. The mechanical transfer of genetic material outside of natural reproductive methods and between genera, families or kingdoms, poses great biological risks as well as economic, political and cultural threats. We feel that genetically engineered varieties have been insufficiently tested prior to public release. More research and testing are necessary to further assess the potential risks of genetically engineered seeds. Further, we wish to support agricultural progress that leads to healthier soils, genetically diverse agricultural ecosystems and ultimately people and communities.”
Thank you Jo!
I think I will go with Purcell Mountain unless I find a reason not to. I’m okay if they aren’t perfect seed beans, I can accept a lower germination rate due to the cost, and if they don’t grow true to type that’s okay as these are going to be my eating beans, I got a few packets I’m going to grow for next years seed supply.
Mark, I was going to place an order from Fedco, and then I noticed in their Organic Grower’s Supply catalog a letter from the head of that department that seemed to be pro-Marxist, so I wrote him and Fedco. He wrote back with a decent enough explanation to make me not immediately boycott, and then the founder wrote me a rather rude email. I’ve never been so poorly treated by a business. I’m pretty sure Fedco is doing what I call “pulling a Ben & Jerry” (as in the ice cream company) in which the idealistic socialist leaning founders set out to change the world with their awesome product and upon becoming successful at their capitalist venture they go down a vicious road of self destruction, failing to maintain their capitalist success and failing at socialism, instead becoming fascists. Someone once said a socialist is just a fascist without any money. I agree.
I think boycotting is a personal choice, so I’m not saying anyone should boycott Fedco, but I would pay close attention to the quality and service as there will be a day when no one with any standards would bother doing business with them.
One of the restrictions almost always placed on the sale of hybrid seeds are that they can’t be sold outside of the US, and as a result usually companies that sell them are not allowed to accept any international orders. The owners of hybrid seeds don’t usually want attention paid to this fact, because then a big deal would be made of it, so it’s usually just in the contract between the retailer and supplier of the hybrid varieties that they can’t accept any international orders at all.
You see this with SESE from our discussion above. This is also true with Fedco.
This is because in places like Europe they sell different F1s, or sometimes the same F1 under a different name, and they don’t want anyone to be able to buy cheaper or different seeds than what are sold locally.
Unless someone points this out, you probably wouldn’t notice this was a restriction particularly associated with selling F1s. There are really lots of other insidious restrictions, that have to do with varieties they can offer and how they have to be marketed or labelled.
You are really just much better off buying from a company that doesn’t sell any F1s, and so doesn’t have any of these restrictions. You are much less likely to get ripped off, or be tricked into buying the wrong seeds.
Just like Cynthia feels very strongly about buying from SoC or SESE, I know a lot of people out there feel very strongly about buying from Fedco. I know Fedco sometimes as a company does good things, and for example I know maintainers of heirloom varieties like Will Bonsall and his potatoes often sell their varieties through Fedco.
It depends on what you expect, where you live and what you want to buy, but I personally would look for an alternative place to buy things besides Fedco.
“pro-Marxist”? Really? You’re aligning someone who actually sells something for a living as a Marxist?
Given how strictly you seem to be defining things, and the notion that you seem to be working extra hard to find things wrong (as opposed perhaps to focusing on what these companies are attempting to do), My hunch is that you won’t be happy until you’re growing your own stock – thereby ensuring that your seed is up to your own exacting standards.
I’m not defending the likes of SoC – I ordered from them once, about six years ago, and never went back, due to a combination of poor customer service and that they got swallowed by a profit-first company. But the standards that you appear to be upholding seems to be near impossible to maintain – unless you’re growing your own.
““pro-Marxist”? Really? You’re aligning someone who actually sells something for a living as a Marxist? ”
The contradiction/hypocrisy appears to place considerable strain upon their souls and minds. Based on my email exchanges with the founder and one of the workers at Fedco they are closet Marxists or Marxists in denial. They sell things for a living because they have no other choice at the moment, but they seem to hate themselves for it. They are now becoming increasingly successful with the changing times, and I would expect their finances to greatly improve, and since they are of the “eat the rich” mindset I expect their success shall destroy them.
“Given how strictly you seem to be defining things, and the notion that you seem to be working extra hard to find things wrong (as opposed perhaps to focusing on what these companies are attempting to do)”
I don’t work extra hard to find things wrong. I just look closely and it jumps out at me. Advocating the ideology of famines is clearly wrong to me.
You are right though that I won’t be happy until I grow my own stock. I think you are wrong about it not being possible to maintain my standards. It’s entirely possible for a company to do so although it would greatly limit the ability to grow. High standards means there are limited supplies/resources available to you and the higher prices means most people won’t buy from you. I expect Fedco will lower their standards and ultimately become a marginally better version of Burpee.
Paul:
I’ll be looking forward to hearing about your ‘beyond organic’ seed company, that makes money doesn’t have a ‘Marxist ideology’! I hope you report back and let us know about it.
I think a lot of us would like to make money doing such things.
I think that’s a three to five year project at best…will report back if I have progress. I’ve been thinking about starting a series of related companies, i.e. farm, seed company, compost company, feed supply store (there’s two options here, the overpriced terrible service of the one in town, or the Tractor Supply, a chain store, better prices better services but no character and a lot of their products are crap).
Hi. I guess by mentioning SOC it seems an endorsement but I don’t, as you write, feel strongly about buying from them. Perhaps I should not have posted the info. I saw they had larger bags of beans for sale so mentioned it for the fella who could not find that. I have not bought from them in 3 years, but it was just a feeling I had, a hunch & so didn’t comment on it. I don’t know them to have all bad seeds or anything like that, but still I only bought the couple of packets I needed this year, from my favorite- Bakers & also SESE. All other seeds I had saved. Though even if I needed none I would buy a couple of packets to help support these companies. I admire what they do. I figured the fella needing the seeds would be making his mind up for himself.
Hi Cynthia,
I’m sorry I misrepresented what you said.
Your opinions are always welcome here! Too much information is not usually a bad thing, and I’m glad you mentioned SoC. Please stay around and keep saying whatever you want!
Of course I will my friend!
Greetings, just found your info about beans, was wondering if Paul or anyone else has tried the beans fron Purcell Mt to grow out. After looking for seed stock and the prices for heriloom beans well, I was going to try them. Was looking to see if any one has had sucess with them???
Also would love to get a readable Hudson Seedman cat. I have to get on the list to recieve this thanks
kalinda
Hi Kalinda,
Thanks for your comment. This discussion is only a few weeks old. Even if someone had managed to get beans from Purcell Mt by now and plant them, they haven’t had a chance to grow yet.
There was a brief mention of them here, at the bottom of the page:
http://alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=corn&thread=4364&page=1
You might try signing up and asking the people on that forum. Someone there may have a clear opinion by now.